Discussion:
[gmx-users] Justin umbrella sampling tutorial......
rama david
2012-05-23 13:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gromacs Friends,

I am performing justin tutorial for umbrella sampling ..
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin/gmx-tutorials/umbrella/05_pull.html
I encounter with following problem while using the disatances.pl script

1. After command perl distances.pl I got following message ...


Use of uninitialized value $distance in concatenation (.) or string at
distances.pl line 30.
readline() on closed filehandle IN at distances.pl line 16.
What may be reason for these ..
2. What is the groups.txt ??
Where it will find ?? Why it is needed??
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-23 16:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Hi Gromacs Friends,
I am performing justin tutorial for umbrella sampling ..
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin/gmx-tutorials/umbrella/05_pull.html
I encounter with following problem while using the disatances.pl
<http://disatances.pl> script
1. After command perl distances.pl <http://distances.pl> I got following
message ...
Use of uninitialized value $distance in concatenation (.) or string at
distances.pl <http://distances.pl> line 30.
readline() on closed filehandle IN at distances.pl <http://distances.pl>
line 16.
What may be reason for these ..
The required input doesn't exist. Either you omitted a step or you're executing
the script in the wrong directory.
Post by rama david
2. What is the groups.txt ??
Where it will find ?? Why it is needed??
This is stated in the tutorial.

-Justin
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

========================================
rama david
2012-05-24 05:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Thank you justin..
I solve script problem..

I have another query ..
As mention in tutorial , In step six , we have to do brief NPT
equilibration
npt_umbrella.mdp link is
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin/gmx-tutorials/umbrella/Files/npt_umbrella.mdp
After these we have to run MD ...mdp file link is

http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin/gmx-tutorials/umbrella/Files/md_umbrella.mdp


1. In both case define is same..
In general When we are doing NPT we are position restrain whole
protein backbone ,
But in these case we are only restrain chain B...Please explain in
detail ...

2. The difference in mdp file is at gen_vel, and run time 100 ps for npt
, 10 ns for md
If both mdp file is same Then why to do separate npt and md

( Is the only reason is to generate velocity in npt simulation ???
Why we are not using velocity from
pull *(step five)* )

3 . If we are using the gen_vel = yes
continuation = yes

If continuation is yes, then why gen_vel is yes ????

Please shade some light on meaning of continuation and gen_vel


Thank you in advance


With Best Wishes,
Rama David
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-24 05:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Thank you justin..
I solve script problem..
I have another query ..
As mention in tutorial , In step six , we have to do brief NPT equilibration
npt_umbrella.mdp link is
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin/gmx-tutorials/umbrella/Files/npt_umbrella.mdp
After these we have to run MD ...mdp file link is
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin/gmx-tutorials/umbrella/Files/md_umbrella.mdp
1. In both case define is same..
In general When we are doing NPT we are position restrain whole protein
backbone ,
But in these case we are only restrain chain B...Please explain in detail ...
Please read the paper we published using this system. It explains the
conceptual details.
Post by rama david
2. The difference in mdp file is at gen_vel, and run time 100 ps for npt , 10
ns for md
If both mdp file is same Then why to do separate npt and md
( Is the only reason is to generate velocity in npt simulation ??? Why we
are not using velocity from
pull /(step five)/ )
3 . If we are using the gen_vel = yes
continuation = yes
If continuation is yes, then why gen_vel is yes ????
Please shade some light on meaning of continuation and gen_vel
At this point, you're basically starting a new simulation in the absence of a
net pull force. You're using the umbrella potential as a restraint, not to bias
the motion, so you're re-equilibrating. The use of "continuation = yes" simply
implies that the starting configuration has already been constrained and thus
the constraints should not be reset. In this context, the difference between
"yes" and "no" is likely not particularly relevant.

-Justin
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

========================================
rama david
2012-05-24 05:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Justin,

Thank you for your Reply

Before start tutorial I read your paper, It help me
a lot to understand the concept of umbrella sampling...

But truly I not understand the part in six step
why to use define -DPOSRES_B and not -DPOSRES,
I think I miss it ...


I will be a very greatfull to you, if you shade
some light on these ....

Sorry for trouble

Thank you in advance

With best wishes,
Rama David



Thank you in advance

With Best Wishes,

Rama David
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-24 05:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Hi Justin,
Thank you for your Reply
Before start tutorial I read your paper, It help me
a lot to understand the concept of umbrella sampling...
But truly I not understand the part in six step
why to use define -DPOSRES_B and not -DPOSRES,
I think I miss it ...
I will be a very greatfull to you, if you shade
some light on these ....
Using -DPOSRES_B restrains only one chain of the protein, thus mimicking the
stability of a larger macromolecular assembly. Using -DPOSRES restrains all
protein chains, which accomplishes nothing when trying to do umbrella sampling.
The chain to which the umbrella potential is applied would not be able to move
at all, thus rendering the pull force measurements ineffectual.

-Justin
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

========================================
rama david
2012-05-24 06:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for your reply,

I am asking you again same question, EXTREMELY SORRY for my stupidity,

In step six , I unable to differentiate npt and production run by
mdp file as usualy we find difference by define term,

I think I get meaning upto reason why to use -DPOSRES_B,
but I want to know if we are using same mdp file in both condition
means the npt equilibriation is as same as md production ,

Then why to do npt, just run production md with DPOSRES_B


With my best Wishes ,
Rama David
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-24 08:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Thank you for your reply,
I am asking you again same question, EXTREMELY SORRY for my stupidity,
In step six , I unable to differentiate npt and production run by
mdp file as usualy we find difference by define term,
I think I get meaning upto reason why to use -DPOSRES_B,
but I want to know if we are using same mdp file in both condition
means the npt equilibriation is as same as md production ,
Then why to do npt, just run production md with DPOSRES_B
I'm not sure of what the question is exactly, so my apologies if the following
explanation does not answer it. For the tutorial, NPT is conducted with
restraints on all protein heavy atoms. The production runs are conducted by
restraining only one chain for practical reasons.

Don't confuse yourself by always assuming that the difference between NPT and
production runs is the use of define statements or position restraints. There
are many ways of doing equilibration. NPT of a protein in solvent is typically
done with restraints on the protein, allowing the solvent to relax and avoiding
potential geometric distortions due to bad solvent contacts. Production runs
may or may not make use of any restraints. Their use is dependent upon the
situation at hand and whether or not they are appropriate.

I hope this explanation makes everything clear.

-Justin
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

========================================
rama david
2012-05-24 10:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Justin for these correct explanation
Its really clear my lot of queries..
For the tutorial, NPT is conducted with restraints on all protein heavy
atoms. The production runs are conducted by restraining only one chain for
practical reasons.
These is my question ;
If we are doing NPT with restraints on all protein atom and production run
by conducted by restraining only one chain for protein...

means NPT and productin run mdp files should be different , Where these
information in mdp files???
It my request to you please tell me why these mdp files are almost same in
parameter ..

(Where you mentioned in mdp for npt to do restraints on all proteins heavy
atoms and for production md restraining only
one chain ..)



Please accept my apology if I unable to explain you my problem



Thank you in advance ...

With best wishes,
Rama david
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-24 21:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Thank you Justin for these correct explanation
Its really clear my lot of queries..
For the tutorial, NPT is conducted with restraints on all protein heavy
atoms. The production runs are conducted by restraining only one chain for
practical reasons.
These is my question ;
If we are doing NPT with restraints on all protein atom and production run by
conducted by restraining only one chain for protein...
means NPT and productin run mdp files should be different , Where these
information in mdp files???
It my request to you please tell me why these mdp files are almost same in
parameter ..
(Where you mentioned in mdp for npt to do restraints on all proteins heavy atoms
and for production md restraining only
one chain ..)
I don't understand what more I can say beyond what I already have.

-Justin
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

========================================
Thomas Schlesier
2012-05-25 15:16:40 UTC
Permalink
I think all the answers to your question are in the tutorial. Probably
read first the lysozyme tutorial and then the umbrella tutorial again.

But here is a more general answer:

Normally you have two types of simulations:
preperation (which is also equilibration)
production
and the need of restraints depends on what you want to achive.

So if you want to calculate some equilibrium property of a protein in
water you do first a preperation simulation to equilibrate the system
(NVE, NVT or NPT - depending for what ensemble you want the property).
Normally during this you put position restraints to the protein
backbone, so that the protein structure does not gets disturbed during
the part where you equilibrate the water. but if your protein is fairly
stable / rigid, you don't need these restraints.
Then you do the production simulation. Normally without restraints,
since you want to know the property for a protein in equilibrium. But
you could also do this with the same position restraints, in the extrem
case, when you freeze the protein, you would get the property for a
special protein geometry (the one to which ou restrain the coordinates).
-> So it really depends on what you want to do!!!

For the umbrella tutorial:
As far as i remember, Justin used the restrains for one of the chains
(B), so to conserve the structure of said chain, because when one pull
chain A away this would have an influence to the structure of chain B
(they interact with each other).
BUT: one could also dismiss these restrains during the umbrella
simulations, since it is expected the structure of chain B depends on
the distance to chain A (since they interact).
You could also restrain only that part of chain B, which does not
interact directly with chain A, to conserve a part of the structure of B
(so you would be in the middle between the two extreme cases above).

In all three cases you get a different answer (like above for the
equilibrium property). One could argue which is the better option, but i
think all three have their right to exist, since the answer to this also
depends on the initial question. Best would be to do all three cases,
but mostly one does not have so much time. So one must stick to one.

Which leads to:
First think about your question.
Then think about how to answer it (think often there will be different
possibilities / methods).
Then decide what to do...
Since the answer you get (may) depend on the method you use, you should
justify your decission.

Hope this helps
greetings
thomas
Post by Justin A. Lemkul
Post by rama david
Thank you Justin for these correct explanation
Post by rama david
Its really clear my lot of queries..
For the tutorial, NPT is conducted with restraints on all protein heavy
atoms. The production runs are conducted by restraining only one chain for
practical reasons.
These is my question ;
If we are doing NPT with restraints on all protein atom and production run by
conducted by restraining only one chain for protein...
means NPT and productin run mdp files should be different , Where these
information in mdp files???
It my request to you please tell me why these mdp files are almost same in
parameter ..
(Where you mentioned in mdp for npt to do restraints on all proteins heavy atoms
and for production md restraining only
one chain ..)
I don't understand what more I can say beyond what I already have.
-Justin
rama david
2012-05-28 19:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Thomas and Justin for your valuable suggestion.
Thomas and Justin, my Query is as follow......

In step six ..We are doing NPT equilibration followed by production run....
The mdp files for both is same(Except the time of run and saving of
output)....
So why the two mdp are same????? Why we not restrain total protein for NPT
equilibration (-DPOSRES)
and then only POSRES_B (Position restrain on B chain, remove position
restrain from other chain)
for production run..(these we follow generally)???

The main reason of confusion to me is the same mdp file in
Equilibration(npt_umbrella.mdp )
and production run (md_umbrella.mdp). So what is the difference between the
NPT equilibration
and production run.???

As per Thomas explanation I interpret the following Answer to my Queries..
Please tell me these are right or wrong ....


*So if you want to calculate some equilibrium property of a protein in
water you do
first a preperation simulation to equilibrate the system (NVE, NVT or NPT
- depending
for what ensemble you want the property).Normally during this you put
position restraints
to the protein backbone, so that the protein structure does not gets
disturbed during the part where you equilibrate the water. but if your
protein is fairly stable / rigid, you don't need these restraints.*

So as the protein is stable thats why we are not using the position
restrained in NPT..
That is the reason the npt_umbrella.mdp and md_umbrella.mdp looks same.



Please accept my apology if I interpret any wrong and if unable to explain
you my query..

Thanks to Justin and Thomas for there valuable guidance....

I will be a very greatfull to you if you help me to solve my simple query..


Thank you in advance...


With Best Wishes,
Rama David.
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rama david
2012-05-28 19:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Thank you Thomas and Justin for your valuable suggestion.
Thomas and Justin, my Query is as follow......
In step six ..We are doing NPT equilibration followed by production run....
The mdp files for both is same(Except the time of run and saving of
output)....
So why the two mdp are same????? Why we not restrain total protein for
NPT equilibration (-DPOSRES)
and then only POSRES_B (Position restrain on B chain, remove position
restrain from other chain)
for production run..(these we follow generally)???
The main reason of confusion to me is the same mdp file in
Equilibration(npt_umbrella.mdp )
and production run (md_umbrella.mdp). So what is the difference between
the NPT equilibration
and production run.???
As per Thomas explanation I interpret the following Answer to my Queries..
Please tell me these are right or wrong ....
*
So if you want to calculate some equilibrium property of a protein in
water you do
first a preperation simulation to equilibrate the system (NVE, NVT or NPT
- depending
for what ensemble you want the property).Normally during this you put
position restraints
to the protein backbone, so that the protein structure does not gets
disturbed during the part where you equilibrate the water. but if your
protein is fairly stable / rigid, you don't need these
restraints.....(Thomas Explanation)
*
my Interpretation is as follow ....
So as the protein is stable thats why we are not using the position
restrained in NPT..
That is the reason the npt_umbrella.mdp and md_umbrella.mdp looks same.
Please accept my apology if I interpret any wrong and if unable to explain
you my query..
Thanks to Justin and Thomas for there valuable guidance....
I will be a very greatfull to you if you help me to solve my simple
query..
Thank you in advance...
With Best Wishes,
Rama David.
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-28 19:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Thank you Thomas and Justin for your valuable suggestion.
Thomas and Justin, my Query is as follow......
In step six ..We are doing NPT equilibration followed by production run....
The mdp files for both is same(Except the time of run and saving of output)....
So why the two mdp are same????? Why we not restrain total protein for NPT
equilibration (-DPOSRES)
and then only POSRES_B (Position restrain on B chain, remove position restrain
from other chain)
for production run..(these we follow generally)???
The main reason of confusion to me is the same mdp file in
Equilibration(npt_umbrella.mdp )
and production run (md_umbrella.mdp). So what is the difference between the NPT
equilibration
and production run.???
If one were to run an umbrella sampling simulation in each window without prior
equilibration, you would normally discard the first few ns as equilibration.
All the tutorial is telling you to do is to run some equilibration as a separate
step. You can approach the equilibration however you like.
Post by rama david
As per Thomas explanation I interpret the following Answer to my Queries..
Please tell me these are right or wrong ....
*/So if you want to calculate some equilibrium property of a protein in water you do
first a preperation simulation to equilibrate the system (NVE, NVT or NPT -
depending
for what ensemble you want the property).Normally during this you put position
restraints
to the protein backbone, so that the protein structure does not gets disturbed
during the part where you equilibrate the water. but if your protein is fairly
stable / rigid, you don't need these restraints./*
So as the protein is stable thats why we are not using the position restrained
in NPT..
That is the reason the npt_umbrella.mdp and md_umbrella.mdp looks same.
More or less. The special case with what you're doing in the tutorial is that
you have no initiating velocities in each window; you only have coordinates.
That's why it makes sense to do a bit of equilibration in each window first,
generating velocities and re-equilibrating the system.

-Justin
Post by rama david
Please accept my apology if I interpret any wrong and if unable to explain you
my query..
Thanks to Justin and Thomas for there valuable guidance....
I will be a very greatfull to you if you help me to solve my simple query..
Thank you in advance...
With Best Wishes,
Rama David.
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

========================================
rama david
2012-05-28 19:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Justin for reply...
Post by Justin A. Lemkul
More or less. The special case with what you're doing in the tutorial is
that you have no initiating velocities in each window; you only have
coordinates. That's why it makes sense to do a bit of equilibration in each
window first, generating velocities and re-equilibrating the system.
-Justin
In npt_umbrella.mdp we have
gen_vel = yes
The command line in tutorial is
grompp -f npt_umbrella.mdp -c conf0.gro -p topol.top -n index.ndx -o npt0.tpr
...
grompp -f npt_umbrella.mdp -c conf450.gro -p topol.top -n index.ndx -o npt22.tpr


So if I modify the process as follow, Then is the need of equilibration
(Can we skip equilibration and run production md)

use -t flag with cpt ( to give velocity of the previous run ) file
continuation = yes
gen_vel = no .

Is these alternative process is right or totally wrong..???

Please give me a valuable suggestion.

Thank you in advance.

With Best Wishes,
Rama David.
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-28 19:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Thank you Justin for reply...
More or less. The special case with what you're doing in the tutorial is
that you have no initiating velocities in each window; you only have
coordinates. That's why it makes sense to do a bit of equilibration in each
window first, generating velocities and re-equilibrating the system.
-Justin
In npt_umbrella.mdp we have
gen_vel = yes
The command line in tutorial is
grompp -f npt_umbrella.mdp -c conf0.gro -p topol.top -n index.ndx -o npt0.tpr
...
grompp -f npt_umbrella.mdp -c conf450.gro -p topol.top -n index.ndx -o npt22.tpr
So if I modify the process as follow, Then is the need of equilibration (Can we
skip equilibration and run production md)
use -t flag with cpt ( to give velocity of the previous run ) file
continuation = yes
gen_vel = no .
Is these alternative process is right or totally wrong..???
Using the checkpoint in this instance is wrong. The only checkpoint you have
accessible to you at that point is from the end of the pulling simulation and
corresponds to the final state of the system. Applying these velocities to the
intermediate configurations along the reaction coordinate is likely to do weird
and unreliable things to the trajectory. It is more robust to run NPT and then
data collection, or as I said before, proceed immediately to a continuous data
collection (with gen_vel = yes!) and discard the initial few ns of data as
equilibration. In theory, this procedure is no different than any other
simulation that one conducts.

-Justin
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

========================================
rama david
2012-05-28 20:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Justin..
Post by Justin A. Lemkul
Post by rama david
Is these alternative process is right or totally wrong..???
Using the checkpoint in this instance is wrong. The only checkpoint you
have accessible to you at that point is from the end of the pulling
simulation and corresponds to the final state of the system. Applying
these velocities to the intermediate configurations along the reaction
coordinate is likely to do weird and unreliable things to the trajectory.
It is more robust to run NPT and then data collection, or as I said
before, proceed immediately to a continuous data collection (with gen_vel =
yes!) and discard the initial few ns of data as equilibration. In theory,
this procedure is no different than any other simulation that one conducts.
Check point file has velocity of the last co-ordinates and we are using
middle configuration..
Thank you for explaination ...

I have another query..

In npt equilibration can I use define = -DPOSRES (Position restrain all the
protein along the chain B)
and in production md define = -DPOSRES_B ( Position restrain for chain B
only..) ???


If not What is appropriate reason???

Thank you in advance...

With Best Wishes,
Rama David.
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Justin A. Lemkul
2012-05-28 20:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by rama david
Thank you Justin..
Is these alternative process is right or totally wrong..???
Using the checkpoint in this instance is wrong. The only checkpoint you
have accessible to you at that point is from the end of the pulling
simulation and corresponds to the final state of the system. Applying these
velocities to the intermediate configurations along the reaction coordinate
is likely to do weird and unreliable things to the trajectory. It is more
robust to run NPT and then data collection, or as I said before, proceed
immediately to a continuous data collection (with gen_vel = yes!) and
discard the initial few ns of data as equilibration. In theory, this
procedure is no different than any other simulation that one conducts.
Check point file has velocity of the last co-ordinates and we are using middle
configuration..
Thank you for explaination ...
I have another query..
In npt equilibration can I use define = -DPOSRES (Position restrain all the
protein along the chain B)
and in production md define = -DPOSRES_B ( Position restrain for chain B
only..) ???
If not What is appropriate reason???
You can use either. I have never tried it, but there is no reason to believe
there will be any substantive reason during data collection. The production MD
period is significantly longer than the equilibration, and the results will
likely turn out the same, when considering error estimates. Sufficient sampling
of any series of simulations should converge.

-Justin
--
========================================

Justin A. Lemkul, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Biochemistry
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA
jalemkul[at]vt.edu | (540) 231-9080
http://www.bevanlab.biochem.vt.edu/Pages/Personal/justin

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rama david
2012-05-28 20:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Justin for giving your valuable time to solve
my stupid problems.
Post by Justin A. Lemkul
You can use either. I have never tried it, but there is no reason to
believe there will be any substantive reason during data collection. The
production MD period is significantly longer than the equilibration, and
the results will likely turn out the same, when considering error
estimates. Sufficient sampling of any series of simulations should
converge.
-Justin
With Best Wishes,
Rama David.
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